Jung's Map of the Soul - A Conversation with Murray Stein pt. 2

We hope that part one was thought provoking for you, with so many more questions in our minds we continue our conversation with Dr. Murray Stein; join us now for part 2. - Shinara 

What specific things do you think have influenced your ego personally, or which conflicts have helped it grow?

For me teachers have been very influential. They have inspired me to learn and develop a distinct set of values and ideas. Failure has been a great teacher because it produced a conflict between who I was and who I thought I was. This forced me to strive to come closer to what I thought I could become. Conflicts have forced me to clarify my thinking about myself, about others, about the world in general. “The gold is in the rust,” as the alchemists said. That means that the best of you comes out of the place of despair and self-doubt, but of course only if you work on it.

How did Jung's role as a scientist lead him to have such complex ideas about the psyche and soma (or body) being separate?

Jung does not separate psyche and soma. They are of the same substance, two sides of one coin. The two sides interact with one another constantly and mutually. The self is a whole, made up of body, psyche, and spirit. In this sense, Jung is not a Cartesian but more a Spinozaist. Jung was a medical doctor and psychiatrist and so was well acquainted with the close connection between psyche and soma.

In terms of Jung's psychological types, which do you think you fall into/lean towards the most? Introversion or extroversion, and thinking, feeling, sensation or intuition? 

Your question indicates familiarity with Jung’s typology because you do not use it segment and categorize absolutely. Jung thought of it as a critical tool that helps us sort out various parts and aspects of ourselves. We have all the combinations but tend to use some more than others out of habit or inherent inclination. As I view myself in life and over the course of 75 years by now, I see that I tend toward the introverted side by general preference and I favour thinking and intuition over sensation and feeling. I try to stay in balance as much as possible but am not always successful. When I’m tired I become lazy and retreat to my habitual preferences.

Theoretically, does divination put paid to coincidence?

Divination involves careful attention to facts that usually are discarded as meaningless – the flight of a bird, the markings on a tortoise shell, the entrails of an animal, the random distribution of cards or coins or yarrow stalks. It takes coincidence seriously, and finds meanings. Sometimes it’s amazingly accurate.

Do you believe in coincidence?

I live with an awareness that coincidence may be meaningful and try to reflect on that. Some so-called coincidences have turned out to be extraordinarily symbolic and have led to a sense that we can be offered “signals of transcendence” in surprising ways and places.

Have you analysed your own dreams?

I think about them and carry them around with me throughout the day. Some dreams stay with me for a long time and I continue to find subtle hints of meaning in them. Sometimes I tell them to a friend and we reflect on them together. I try to stay in touch with them.

Some people say 'everything happens for a reason.' - is the answer to this, simply 'Yes, it does' and is this something you would agree with?

This depends on what you mean by “reason.” Of course there is always a reason, be it a material causal reason or a more symbolic reason. Many mistakes are made, though, in interpreting events and finding reasons because the results come from prejudice and pre-existing ideas.

At the time BTS came into my life I was grieving after losing my Mother in traumatic circumstances and going through the process for bariatric surgery. BTS' message of self-love really was relevant and the love I felt for them and the people I have met through the fandom helped bring me out of the emotional numbness I was experiencing. They came into my life at the 'right time' which is technically one of those inexplicable timings. Would I have the relationship with them, that I have now, had it been a different time in my life? Could it be that subconsciously I needed BTS, ARMY and everything they stand for?

In Jungian psychology we have a term for experiences like this: synchronicity. These are meaningful coincidences. In Chinese wisdom it is said that when the student is ready the teacher will arrive. It seems BTS came along at just the right time for you.

Could you ever imagine a person not having a shadow, is that state reserved for people that are known for a saintly behaviours. Would they still have had some form of Shadow?

No, I can’t. In fact, it is often the case that the greater the personality the deeper the shadow. Even saints have shadows. It’s because they are human and have personalities. No one is without shadow.

You say the ego is unconscious of the shadows existence and can't control it, but there must be some personalities that embrace the shadow?

You can become conscious of aspects of your shadow and when you do you can accept them and work with them. I understand “embrace” to mean accept and hold in consciousness. And acceptance does not mean just letting yourself off the hook and saying everything is just fine. It means taking responsibility for who and what you are.

Do you find now that the norm of what you describe the shadow consisting of - a place to hide your selfish, wilful, unfeeling and controlling desires has actually flipped so the previously identified 'negative identity' is now the norm? People celebrate the ugly side of their nature and hide the sentimental and sensitive and that kind of personality is encouraged to develop from a young age?

The shadow is the counter side, or opposite, of the persona. If the persona says “nice person” and “conventional,” then the shadow will be “bad person” and “unconventional” or maybe even “evil.” However, if the  persona says “bad boy” or “bad girl,” then the shadow of this will be the opposite: “good girl” or “good boy” and so forth. Think of the opposites, especially when the presentation of persona is extreme.

Power can lead to some people 'the exceptions' that have nothing to lose indulging their evil passions, what about people who remain powerless (status in society) that became sociopaths who have things to lose, what is their trigger? For example - Working class parents that murder their children.

The sociopath is a person without a conscience or a sense of empathy for other people. There is no shame or guilt when they steal from others or wound them. Usually they are people who have not experienced love and acceptance in their lives. Perhaps their parents neglected them or abused them so they do the same to their children. They can also be very clever in using personas that are charming and seductive. There is no inner connection between the mask (“persona”) and the selfish ego.

Multiple personality disorders, are the separate personalities manifestations of the egos shadow?

The multiples are what we call sub-personalities. We all have them. In the pathological, the personalities are separated to an extreme degree and can take over the ego in turn without communicating with one another. In therapy we try to connect them and link them to a central ego function. Some of the sub-personalities would be shadow in relation to others, or they could be just complimentary figures. In one, the person is a male, in another a female, for instance.

The making of the shadow - ego development. What ego-consciousness rejects, can it be influenced by family, environment, religion etc, things external to a person's own consciousness?

The development of the shadow takes place in tandem with the development of the persona. Outer influences from family and culture play an important role in this process. A child will be pulled toward family and cultural values and behaviour by imitation and will then find an identity in this persona. What family and culture reject and repress, will also tend to be rejected and repressed by the child. In later years an individual may swing to the opposite and identify with the shadow features of family and culture and assume a counter-cultural or rebellious persona. This then pushes the earlier features previously identified with into the shadow and a kind of reversal takes place in the personality. What was  previously shadow is now persona and what was persona is now shadow.

We have a shadow that comes out when we are defensive; we have a persona mask that we use to hide from the world. When are we ever our true selves?

You have to define what you mean by “true self.” There are various ways to look at this. In Jung’s theory the self is the totality of the personality – all the many figures and sub-personalities that make up the psyche as a whole. This includes persona, shadow, anima/animus, and everything else that makes up the inventory of the personality. The true self is therefore a complexity. So it is not an easy thing to speak for the true self or from the true self. Maybe if you find a way to show the full complexity of your whole being you will be showing your true self.

Is there a possibility that the more a functional persona is used it can become the person's real face/ego?

I don't think so. However, the more flexible one is in using the persona, or the several personas, you have developed, the more you will be able to communicate your complexity to others and for yourself. The important thing is not to become totally identified with a persona. This is a trap and restricts the development of the full personality.

We come to an end for part 2, we hope these questions and answers gave you something to think about. Join us again tomorrow for part 3 of our special Jung's Map of the Soul - A Conversation with Murray Stein.

If you've missed part 1 of our conversation with Murray Stein you can find it at the following link: Jung's Map of the Soul - A Conversation with Murray Stein pt.1

Got some questions that you would like to ask the author himself? Then please feel free to leave a comment below, or alternatively you can email us at shinara.btsradiouk@gmail.com

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