Jung's Map of the Soul - A Conversation with Murray Stein pt.4

We come to the end of our interview - A Conversation with Murray Stein in today's installment; so with no further delay, we continue from yesterday's discussion about individuation.

Should we all strive to achieve the highest level of individuation? Or does modern society require people at all stages to function?

People have to function in society at whatever stage of individuation they may find themselves, but everybody can strive for greater wholeness. Society would like to use us as simple cogs in its machinery, so as far as society is concerned it is fine to stay where you are so long as you are performing a role and fulfilling a function. Society will resist the individuation process if it takes energy away from the social mechanisms, so the individual may have to resist the social pressure to stay in place and only conform to the wishes of the collective. However, it is in the long-term interest of humanity to allow individuals room to develop fully because a more individuated person will also be a more responsible person in society and a better citizen of the world.

Jung was exploring some Asian cultures, e.g. India, which seems to allow the achievement of an even higher level of consciousness. How big of an influence does the cultural background have on the likelihood of successful individuation?

The more rigid and restrictive a social or cultural system is, the harder it is to find room for individuation because there is such a great emphasis on persona. Broad education is an important facilitator of individuation because it allows people to step out of their immediate cultural confines and consider other psychological and spiritual possibilities. Jung was a pioneer in this sort of expansion of consciousness beyond his European background and boundaries. He was deeply impressed by the spiritual developments of Eastern cultures such as that in India. And he invited the teachers and leaders from those cultures to enter into dialogue with Western culture as well. The exchange can have an enlivening and broadening effect and can lead to development.

Do societies that put more emphasis on people fitting in hamper individuation attempts?

Yes, because the persona will exclude the other possibilities for life and development. That said, too much freedom presents other problems. One has to choose a path and follow it. In traditional societies the  path is given by social status, class, gender definitions, etc. In more open societies, individuals are free to find their own path. Sometimes there are so many choices that a person doesn’t ever get around to making a decision, and this does not facilitate individuation. Individuation needs a certain amount of struggle and conflict between self and society, but not too much, nor too little. Again, there are no formulas for this. I would not be in favour of designing a perfect society for the purposes of individuation. I’m not wise enough for that.

Do you believe that Jung’s attempt to describe human personalities by a fixed set of psychological types tells the whole story? Or are there parts of people’s personalities that aren’t covered by it and that you believe would be worth adding?

Jung did not offer his theory of psychological types as a full and complete statement about the human personality. It is as he said a critical tool that can be used to make some distinctions among various types of approaching the world and trying to understand it. But there is much more to the human personality than typo-logical preference. The psyche is vast, and Jung’s map of it includes many features beyond the typology.

Are there any other points in which you disagree with Jung? What do you think of personality tests like the MBTI test, which is in part based on Jung’s theories?

I don’t think Jung would have approved of MBTI and the way it is often used to put people into boxes. I personally use Jung’s theories and ideas in my life and work, but I don’t restrict my thinking to what he has said or not said. Did he get some things wrong? Of course, who hasn’t. But he offers a useful way to understand psychological and emotional problems and to solved them by using the keys he provides in his writings.

Does every technique Jung thought of work on his patients or does he have to change some to fit the person?

Jung said that when a therapist enters the consulting room with his or her client, all theories should be left at the door and the person listened to, heard, confronted in a fresh and creative way. The work with patients does not proceed with recipes but with empathy and understanding based on the therapist’s experience and background and education. Each case is unique even if many show similarities in the type of material dealt with over the course of a long analysis.

Is our inner world something we can see or is it a feeling?

Some people are more visual and they “see” the inner world. Others are more auditory and they “hear” it. Or you can just sense it in you and around you. This depends on typology in part and on your gifts and abilities. A musician like Mozart could hear it, while a painter like Picasso could see it, and a poet like Rilke could feel it and put it into words.

When he was a Medic during WW1, if he hadn’t centred himself would he have had a more traumatic experience?

Jung wasn’t in combat because Switzerland was and is a neutral country. He served in the Swiss army as did all adult men, and he administered an internship camp for prisoners of war for a time. During this time he centered himself each day by drawing mandalas, and this seemed to help him keep a good balance or at least know when he was not balanced.

If the Eco-Consciousness is over-balanced, how deeply could this affect the person as its function is to keep them alive?

I’m not sure what “over-balanced” means, but if it means that such a person is slow to act and too much given to reflection, then, yes, it could be a handicap in preservation that is sometimes very useful.

He said that ‘Self contains opposites’ to which extent are these opposites visible, if they are?

The opposites are not usually visible. They are experienced, for instance, as a push-pull effect when you can’t decide between two courses of action or behavior. You want to be “good” and “bad” at the same time. This is the opposition between persona and shadow. Or you want to be good to yourself and you want to help someone else but this will block you from helping yourself – this is a conflict between the ego and the altruistic impulse. Jung called this a conflict of duties. We confront these every day on a regular basis. They also play a role in your construction of a persona and your choice will create a conflict between persona and shadow.

Why was it a good idea to map out the area of the psyche first before looking at the ego complex or at the nature of consciousness?

It’s too easy to fall into the illusion that the ego is the centre and indeed the whole of the psyche, so the strategy was to put the ego into the wider context of the psyche before looking at its nature and function.

What is your opinion on why family members follow the same pattern when experiencing anxieties and conflict?

Jung studied this familiar phenomenon in his early work on the complexes. Using the Word Association Experiment (WAE), he discovered an incredible resemblance between the complexes of mothers and daughters, fathers and sons, and family members in general. Cultural complexes also get passed on to the new generation. Partly this is because we are imitators of what we see and feel. We learn a language, for instance, by mimicking the sounds before we understand the meanings. The transmission of “information” through the generations is subtle and widespread. Usually we don’t realise this until we confront others who do not share our complexes. They react differently and don’t understand why we are feeling anxious about something because they do not share the complex.

Is there any way of combating complexes when they leave the ego feeling powerless?

Meditation practices are designed to do this. If you focus on your breathing, for instance, instead of your obsessive thoughts, you can break the pattern. I have also found that people who have practiced active imagination for a time and have found an “inner space” where they feel comfortable and can relax, have an easier time recovering from feelings of helplessness and complex reactions. This requires some training.

Would you say that creating a “social mask” can eventually lead us to forget about our true beliefs?

If you identify strongly with a persona you will feel only what the persona allows after a time. This gives you strength in some situations to ignore distracting emotions or attacks, but it can also prevent you from thinking in an original way. The persona restricts thinking and feeling if the mask is too tightly glued on to the actor’s face. He or she may be a good actor in that specific role but out of touch with what does not fit into that frame.

Why is it that people like to conform by creating false personas whilst also being motivated to rebel against the strictness of society?

We are social animals and want to belong to a group. To be isolated and shunned is a painful experience and can lead to suicidal thoughts and behaviours. We want to be loved and accepted, so we imitate the people who we want to be accepted by – family, peers, fellow rebels. Conformity is the rule of persona. The social rebels also have a persona and by joining gangs or dressing in a certain way find acceptance by their group of choice. Because of our deep longing for love and acceptance it is hard to be an individual and to think and act for ourselves, out of our own feelings and reflections. As conformity is the rule of persona, separation is the rule of individuation.

How and when did you become aware that BTS were using your book as a reference for their new album, and did it surprise you that they were?

I first learned about this from a Japanese student at the International School of Analytical Psychology in Zurich. I was pleasantly surprised to hear that my book, Jung’s Map of the Soul, was being recommended on the BTS website. Later when this same student informed me that the new BTS album was titled after my book, “Map of the Soul: Persona,” I was bowled over. This was so out of my usual range of teaching and communicating that it felt unreal. It’s taken me a while to get used  to it. I still don’t know what it means. But I’m really happy that Jung’s ideas are being introduced into the world of the young people of this new century.

You’ve mentioned that you were looking forward to seeing how they use it for persona, what expectations do you have? Are you aware of their previous works and what have you thought about their music and lyrics?

I am rather new at this but I have begun to listen and to study some of the earlier works of BTS. They seem to be a serious group of young people dedicated to the noble cause of raising consciousness, preventing mobbing, increasing self-acceptance, and fighting the plague of suicide that besets so many parts of the world today especially among young people. They are saying that life is worth living. I support this with all my heart. And maybe “map of the soul” will help serve this worthy cause.

Do you see anything different in BTS with regards to how they compel an audience and also their relationship with their fan base, as opposed to other artists?

BTS has a message. Many pop artists also carry a message but often it’s more about anger and outrage than about consciousness, identity, love and such positive psychological developments. The ARMY fan base seems extremely dedicated and in my experience also extremely respectful.

BTS have previously used books such as Demian, The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas, Into the Magic Shop, and now Map of the Soul to weave complex tales full of symbolism in their work. It has been part of the reason for many fans to seek out more knowledge about the human psyche and how we “tick”.

What is it about the way they present themselves and their relationship with their fans that would make them so influential? Is it based on a connection or through subliminal messaging? Do you think they have a symbiotic relationship?

I don’t know. I would have to attend some of their concerts to “get it.” I suspect they are communicating on many levels, some of them quite non-rational. Symbols are always more than rational, and they engage our attention in ways that we can’t explain. We can only reflect on the effect symbols have on us and try to understand how they are moving us.

Their company, BigHit Entertainment, has been selling a translation of your book in their online store since early last year, and has in turn encouraged many fans overseas to also seek it out, bringing a new generation of people to your work. This must make you feel very proud, that your work can be so inspiring to so many people?

I am very happy about this and extremely grateful to BigHit Entertainment for encouraging fans to read! And to read such good books!

Are Jungs theories still relevant today, and why?

The value of Jung’s theories has only increased with time as people have tested them and used them in many ways. Today Jungian psychoanalysts are located on every inhabited continent, and study groups and training programs can be found all around the world. In Korea, for instance, Prof. Bou-Yong Rhi brought his Jungian training in Zurich, Switzerland to Seoul in the mid 1960’s, and he has been responsible for introducing Jung’s ideas to the Korean audience by translating many of his works and teaching new generations of psychiatrists at the University. The Jungian movement continues to grow worldwide and especially rapidly in areas of the world that were not exposed to Jung’s ideas before the end of the Cold War in 1990. There have been hundreds of contributors to the field of Analytical Psychology since Jung’s time, and Jungian publications continue pouring out of publishing houses in many languages. I am very happy to say that Jungian psychology has a very bright future in this century and beyond

Thank you very much Dr. Stein for your time to read and answer our questions, we really appreciate it.

Unfortunately this concludes our special Conversation with Murray Stein; we hope that you have enjoyed this discussion as much as we did, and that it has helped you to understand Jung and his theories a little more.

If you've missed any part of our conversation with Murray Stein you can find them at the following links:

Jung's Map of the Soul - A Conversation with Murray Stein pt.1

Jung's Map of the Soul - A Conversation with Murray Stein pt.2

Jung's Map of the Soul - A Conversation with Murray Stein pt.3


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