murray stein
by
Shinara Hussain
We are once again privileged to be joined by eminent author Dr. Murray Stein, this time to discuss his book Map of the Soul 7 - Persona, Shadow, & Ego in the world of BTS, which was published earlier this year. The pinnacle of his Map of the Soul series, 7 summarises the books in the series Persona, Shadow, and Ego and delves into BTS' Map of the Soul albums.
A prominent scholar of Jungian psychology, Dr Stein uses his perspective to explore an album that is full of symbolism entwined with BTS' distinct sound to reveal the human souls innermost landscape. This map contains our personality through emotions, sensations, ideas, and habits, giving significance to the realities in our everyday lives.
The layers of meaning behind the number 7 are also mentioned, (and on this 1st anniversary of the first recorded case of Covid-19, November 17th 2020) Dr. Stein has proposed that Black Swan could be seen as prophetic of the pandemic which has taken the world. BTS' discography has equipped Army and admirers with an valuable map and this book could be a way to understand it better.
Thank you Dr. Stein for taking time out to chat with us again. The team at BTS Radio UK has been eager to read your latest release and were excited to ask you some questions about it. Could you please tell us what was the most interesting part of the books creation?
Thinking the BTS fans would be reading it!
Was there anything surprising and/or were there any difficulties you encountered?
I was surprised that BTS would use my book for their albums.
You began the first chapter by telling us how you and many other were shocked at the title of "Map of the Soul:7". If they were to have proceeded with Map of the Soul: Shadow or Ego, what would you have hoped to see within those albums?
I was pleased that they did have numbers on shadow and ego. The title of their album was interesting because the number 7 has such a strong symbolic value. This is a sacred number in many traditions. It represents the realm divine.
You can look the number up in symbol dictionaries and find references from many world religions. The number means "the holy".
You mentioned your interest in going to a BTS concert to watch the interactions between BTS and ARMY in order to gain a greater understanding. Were you able to attend one before the impact of Covid-19?
No, I was not able to attend a concert live. I watched on media.
Having seen footage of their concerts, has it made you more aware of how they communicate with their audience and whether Jung's ideas also be seen on their stages?
I have seen films and watched interactions. [It was] very impressive; and very meaningful on both sides. It is a function of reflection. The films and interactions led me, and many others, to serious reflections about psychology and life.
Were you able to watch the Bang Bang Con - The Live concert online recently, or had a chance to watch live concert footage on YouTube?
I was not able to watch this unfortunately.
Were you able to gain any insight into the special relationship between BTS and ARMY through the concerts?
Yes, it is a love affair.
A love affair is a bonding affair. It creates a relationship, sometimes lifelong. It is an emotional experience of attachment and belonging to one another.
Do you find the relationship differs to Beatlemania, or does it not?
It is more romantic than Beatlemania. The performers and the fans are in an intimate relationship that has a life of its own.
What do you see in the relationship that makes it so special? And have you seen or experienced this kind of relationship before between celebrity and fandom?
I think it is more pure than usual. Maybe this is because of the number 7.
In your book you discuss that a way to look at one's shadow was to watch yourself back on film as this gives an understanding into yourself that cannot be hidden (a camera never lies). This made me curious because in many BTS released "behind the scenes" videos they appear to be scrutinising themselves and their performances and I have been wondering what their shadows may reveal to themselves and could this make them more critical or could they also learn to be more forgiving of themselves too?
I think they can see themselves objectively and that inevitably produces awareness of persona and shadow. It is impressive that they are willing to think about themselves in this way. Very unusual for celebrities to reflect on shadow aspects of themselves.
There are a few references to mob culture in your book, how do you think mob culture relates to BTS fans?
Mob culture is low level consciousness that happens to people when they are in a group and especially when emotion is intense in the group. The mob is susceptible to influence, either for good or the bad. I'm pretty sure BTS wants to influence the fans in the direction of the good.
Recently with Black Lives Matter, ARMY exceeded their own expectations of matching BTS' donation of $1 million in just 24 hours, what are your thoughts on this? Why do you feel that ARMY get so involved
I thought this was a magnificent gesture of solidarity with people who suffer from prejudice on a collective level. This kind of generosity and consciousness is what BTS stands for. I say, "bravo!".
There are several references that ARMY are young, but we know that many of their fans are older, what do you think is the secret of BTS breaking down the many barriers of not only age, but also gender, backgrounds, etc?
The older fans are discovering that they are young at heart. This can be transformational for people who do not know about their inner youthful nature. It brings them life and vitality.
You mentioned that Black Swan seemed to be a harbinger of the crisis we're currently in; do you think that we can mirror that by using more upbeat songs like Ego as a reminder of good times happening in the future?
The release of the song, Black Swan, coincided with the outbreak of the pandemic. The song and the pandemic mirror one another. There is no causal relationship between the two events. It is what we call 'synchronistic', a meaningful coincidence.
You have said that "7" implies a rest, or that BTS have completed something, how do you think that this will develop when their next album is released? Should it be seen as a new individuation process, a new "1", or the start of a new era altogether?
I think they have completed a phase of their lives as a group and are about to enter a new phase. I would not dare to predict what this new phase will bring, but I'm sure it will go even deeper into the world of the soul.
You say of "We Are Bulletproof: The Eternal" that it is about BTS believing that temporality will not affect them, and that their messages will continue to affect people long after BTS aren't even around. Do you agree that this could be true?
This is the feeling of "soul". It is beyond temporality and touches upon the infinite. It is a precious life experience and an important step in the journey toward individuation.
How would someone approach trying to find out more about their shadow?
Look at their dream and try to become conscious or their projections of evil onto others.
Is there a positive to having a shadow?
If the energies of the shadow are transformed and integrated, they can be used for further development.
Which 1 element of Jungian psychology would you want the younger generations to take on board?
The place to begin is exactly where BTS started: with reflection on persona, ego, and shadow.
If you could ask BTS 2 questions, what would you ask?
1. How do you personally understand what you are singing about and performing?
2. Will you tackle the subject of anima in your songs to come?
The individuation process is something that resonates strongly on many levels. Change, whether a natural process or a choice, is often quite scary. How have you dealt with that fear in your own life?
I have good friends and colleagues that I can call on. I learned that the practice of active imagination is a key to building a solid inner foundation for life. Everyone suffers, everyone experiences anxiety and depression from time to time. It is part of the human condition.
We thank you once again Dr. Murray Stein for taking the time to speak to us.
Have you read the book ARMY? What insights did you gain from the book yourself, and what did you gain from the interview? Why not let us know by leaving a comment?
If you are interested in our previous interview series with Murray Stein you can find the links below.
Coversation with Murray Stein pt.1
Conversation with Murray Stein pt.2
Conversation with Murray Stein pt.3
Conversation with Murray Stein pt.4
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